What’s behind the GOP’s three-step process - Tucson Local Media: Editorials

What’s behind the GOP’s three-step process

Welcome to the discussion.


  • vet66 posted at 12:27 pm on Thu, Nov 17, 2011.

    vet66 Posts: 18

    Taking your talking points in order, I submit the following;

    One of the primary reasons 200+- show up to apply for work these days is unemployment is steady at 9% and that doesn't count the people who have given up or their benefits have run out.

    You can't compare the WWII/Korean/VietNam cultures with the 70's/80's etc. The dropout rates in public schools today are a direct result of single family homes where a father figure is absent as measured by increased incarceration rates. Any decrease in drop-out rates are a result of decreased academic standards to keep drop-out prone students in school as long as possible. Keep in mind that schools receive money for ADA so they have a reason to keep dropout rates low.

    If you want to discuss misguided rhetoric, I suggest you study the course offerings at colleges and universities where personal initiative is suffocated under such silliness as assistant provost in charge of (fill in), various chairpersons, deans, diversity/multi-cultural this and that, self-awareness, and a host of other feel-good-about-what-makes-you-special "cool" dudes who advocate for the latest victim class du jour.

    Your remark about TIMMS, SAT and other aptitude tests have been dumbed down, taught before taking the test, and available on-line as to render them meaningless. And that is assuming the questions themselves haven't been dumbed down. I used to get a perfect attendance award every year. These days, that will qualify most for admission to the honor society. Do schools still designate top scholastic achievers or did we stop that practice under orders from the Dept. of Education because it made under-achievers feeeeeellllllll bad about themselves?

    As for the rest of your dreamy portrayal of our current educational system, consider the difference between teaching U.S. history in the context of the time it occurred as opposed to ideological indoctrination by progressive professors. The indoctrination of our students takes place under cover of political correctness that prohibits students from inductive thought that goes against the progressive grain.

    I remember a song from years gone by about a "Cocky-eyed optimist" which characterizes your closing remark about optimism. At some point, optimism runs up against real-politik. What we are witnessing is the liberal lie in an existential crisis bereft of moral, ethical, and value guidance. Human nature being what it is, dreams require hard work, luck, perseverance and discipline not cockeyed optimism that doesn't put food on the table or shelter over your head unless paid for by someone who exhibits those sterling attributes.

  • phildavid posted at 5:38 am on Thu, Nov 17, 2011.

    phildavid Posts: 1

    Your whole premise is just plain wrong. Most public schools do not produce an inferior product. The facts are clear about this:

    * Public schools now produce most academic skills currently demanded by employers. There is a reason that for every job opening in our economy, 200 people with necessary skills show up to apply

    * Compared to what happened in the years our nation was at war in Korea or or Vietnam, or even compared to the 70's or 80's, the numbers show our public schools currently have reduced dropout rates, higher test scores for white and minority students, improved minority college attendance, and more students going into science and engineering. There is a reason so many people graduate with degrees in engineering from Stanford, Georgia Tech, M.I.T. , the U of Texas, etc.

    The facts are you cannot use facts to attack public school outcomes. You can use misguided, incorrect rhetoric, but nobody respects such nonsense.

    Even if you use the TIMMS tests, the international tests in mathematics and science and reading, what you'll see is when comparative samples are used for analysis, the United States is at the top or near the top in almost every category. The press reports on the averages, but those are misleading numbers because we have a lot more students tested than any other country, and or our bottom third drags down the overall average ranking. But when you compare our top third to comparative samples in the other countries that traditionally score at the top, like FInland and Singapore and Taiwan, we do as well.

    An accurate statement about our public schools would be that our top third are first class, our middle third are OK, and our bottom third (the poor urban distrcits) are terrible. It is also accurate to say that according to international tests, the United States public school system produces a lot more students in the top percentages than any other country. It's also accurate to say we have a terrible time educating our poorest kids living in systemic poverty. But since the numbers show we do in fact know how to educate students very well in this country, it is fair to say that we do not have a problem with public education, but rather we have a problem wit poverty. Give me a middle clas sor an upper class neighborhood, and I 'll show you a public school that operates smoothly and that produces world class students.

    Your rhetorical missives about privatization and monetizing schools are also off the mark, for this simple reason: public school spend roughly 9% of overhead on administration, and charter schools are currently averaging about 19% on administration. So you're just standing on the wrong end of the cow on that one.

    Last, you deride what you call the liberal lie, but you must be forgetting the foundation of what is popularly called American exceptionalism, and the foundation of successful entrepreneurship in America has always been the result of the public investment made in our education system. Silicon Valley was made possible because of the great public education system in Californaia (back in the good 'ol days) which made it possible for a huge number of engineers to graduate from the local universities, which in turn became the foundation for companies such as Hewlett Packard. And where are today's high tech, innovative entreprenuers setting up shop? Right next to well-funded universities, because business needs a synergistic relationship with places that do research and that provide educated, skillful employees. In short, business need and profit as a result of what you snidely refer to as the liberal lie. History is clear and indisputable: American exceptionalism was built upon the foundation of a well-funded pubic school system.

    In America, we invest in the future. We believe in that principle as families, we invest in our kids, we invest in their possibilities, and as adults we invest in our hopes and we invest in our dreams. and we invest in our businesses. We are optimists and we believe in public education. You call that the liberal lie; I say It has worked for us in the past, and will continue to work for us in the future.

  • vet66 posted at 2:41 pm on Wed, Nov 16, 2011.

    vet66 Posts: 18

    Mr. Safier;

    Given the recent escalation of protests under the guise of Occupy (fill in name here) it is possible that the voters in our nation are weary of such displays of frustration and nihilism from students and teachers. Part of the frustration is due to the fact that our education system has failed spectacularly from pre-school to college.

    Many of our schools today produce an inferior product with skill sets that barely qualify their students for menial tasks much less the work that is done by those in the hard sciences. Republicans don't demonize public schools as you posit in step 1. The quality of the product from underperforming schools is self-demonization. In fact, many students are semi-literate upon graduation requiring remedial this-and-that to qualify for what passes for higher education at the college level. Throwing money at schools to continue the stasis of mediocrity is a waste of money and robs the children of a meaningful education.

    Privatizing schools at least makes private schools competitive with each other allowing them to succeed or fail on their business plan. If parents aren't satisfied with results they can relocate their children to better performing schools. As it stands now, students are passed along without regard to their abilities or grades, assuming they receive a grade and not a "smiley face" or some other feel-good blather with an emphasis on how the student feels. Hopefully, you didn't get your job because the editor didn't want to reject you and hurting your feelings.

    Step 3; monetizing schools; Students today are incurring tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands of dollars in education expenses happily provided them by our government. These are serious amounts of money that arguably is being laundered through to management heavy school administrators who provide worthless pieces of paper in return.

    The current Occupy crowd has a good reason to be mad. Namely, they realize they have been sold a bill of goods built on false promises and smoke-and-mirrors. They inadvertently correctly point out that those with money, the one percent group, are not only the capitalists who provide jobs but the very school teachers and college professors who preach instead of teach. The education system is not only producing semi-literate professional students but making them failures in analyzing the very system that takes their money.

    What kind of job do students think they will get if the sum total of their education demonizes America, capitalism, our military, and American exceptionalism? The occupy crowd, with the exception of anarchists, psychos, and layabouts on the dole, are mad at themselves for having swallowed the big liberal lie.

    The liberal elites, and you Mr. Safier, have led them down the primrose path and the truth is dawning on them. The Tea Party and the Occupy Wall Street crowd have that in common.


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